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ctown28
ctown28
Tireless Tiger

Apr-16-2009 10:18

I wanted to start this thread to get some opinions from others in the community about the advantages that some players/agencies have over one another. I am not saying my thoughts on them are right or wrong nor am I saying that anybody else’s is. In fact, you may see me flip flop on the topics from time to time as I sometimes like to look at both sides.

What I do not want to see here is for this to turn into a flame war and/or any name calling. Remember, it doesn’t matter if you have been here for 10 days or 1000 days. Every opinion of someone that pays to play the game carries just as much weight as the next person.

A good debate can be healthy for the community and I ask you to all stay respectful here even if you disagree with something that is said here. I will start with some topics and would like to see them discussed and if anyone thinks I missed something or would like to add a topic, by all means go for it.



Replies

topkebab
topkebab
Lucky Stiff

Apr-20-2009 05:11

Now onto my thoughts about advantages:

Case Helpers.
I do think that helpers should not be easily available to newbies early on, since they stunt the learning and thinking process, and create the situation where a newbie can't solve a case without it cos they don't know how to use paper and pen. Having said that, i don't see the problem for the 'old folks' using them, imho i personally would be playing much less since each case would take me longer without the helper that i use. I haven't tried Huglovers' program, mainly because i heard about how it works and that's not how i process my cases (i mean the sequence of who i ask etc). But I don't begrudge others using it cos they can do what they like. And if Huglover (or others) want to use the skills that they have to "improve" their gameplay, and then give away all their hard work for free, that's not something i object strongly to.

VH Helpers.
imho a waste of time for old folks since all you need to do is look at the map of the city you are currently in. Although i applaud those who take the time and effort to create them, i don't use them myself. For newbies... well certainly it would help them and again they would stunt the learning and thinking process.

Little job answers.
Personally i'm not a particular detective/noir story fan, i haven't read most of the books/authors mentioned and some i've never heard of. *waits for the boos to die down* It's nice to have the answers all in one place but in this day and age all i'd have to do is google the answers. There's just no way around the fact that they aren't really a challenge no matter what.

topkebab
topkebab
Lucky Stiff

Apr-20-2009 05:11

So what's the solution? I can't think of a good solution. Are we gonna make it a rule that any and all players of sleuth are not allowed to develop any helper programs, help sheets, etc to help themselves play the game? What about their close friends? What about their agency mates? I've made my own sheet for Prince's Palace, should I stop using it? The best I can come up with is make sure they're not too prominent if it can be helped, and try not to give them out to newbies too early.

Multiple subs.
I do think there should be a rule in place. It may be difficult or tedious to enforce but there should be one. Should there be any exceptions? Absolutely, this is a game after all, we're not talking about life or death. So situations in which family members use the same computer, or one player would like to have more than 2 subs in an agency for a special reason, should absolutely be considered. Any rule in the world will be broken by someone who really really wants to, it's silly to think that ppl who truly want to abuse the trust and honesty of the majority of players here, won't be able to even if Ben does enforce this rule more than he does currently. I agree with 2 subs in an agency that THs, i think that an agency that demonstrably doesn't TH could be considered an exception on a case by case basis.

Password sharing.
If i had an issue with this it would only be in reference to THs. Do any newbies really believe that they HAVE to give their password to the agency they've just joined even if they don't want to? I don't think that this point should even be part of this discussion. But... i don't have a problem with this, it evens out the time zone differences we have here in sleuth. (I'm fading fast here, no long tirade)

topkebab
topkebab
Lucky Stiff

Apr-20-2009 05:12

(Holy cow, 4 posts. Don't worry, this is the last one.)

All cases for a single detective.
OK, imho this is a silly debate. Some people are egotistical and like to see their name above everyone elses. You can't help them. Some people want to help a newbie gain XP. I remember when I was a newbie I really wanted to do as many cases as i could get my hands on because i enjoyed the game and was excited every time i could move up a level of difficulty.

Finally.
I like the idea of resetting favours at turnover, if you are holding one. Not losing it completely, that would be a waste of three cases, but a randomly generated new one after midnight, which actually means there's a 10% chance that it stays the same.

Also I would like to put forward the idea of a separate "subscribers" board within City Hall, which would be a better place for a thread like this than on a board open to any and all newbie. It was pointed out to me that there is a subscribers centre with a message board on it but i have RSI from playing too much sleuth, i prefer two less clicks ;)

I'm not sure if i missed any points, there are so many! I have to look away from the screen now, before my eyes fuse together.

Sleuth Sindy
Sleuth Sindy
Pinball Wizard

Apr-20-2009 06:08

Okay, I did a Google search on the term "snake in the grass," and I realize now that they way it has been used in my family is not the general understanding of the meaning of this term, and I can see how someone would be offended by my apparent misuse of the term here.

My family has always used it simply to mean something that doesn't go well or something you don't like. i.e. The copier at my job breaks down almost every day and I have to work in a very cramped space. I like my job but you know, there's always a snake in the grass (or two or three).

Again, I am very sorry that I posted offended anyone. That was certainly NOT my intention.

Adam Carter
Adam Carter
Big Winner

Apr-20-2009 06:59

After reading all the posts here, the general consensus of the community seems to be "let's not rock the boat." To me, this is disheartening. A couple of years ago, when the game was running at full steam, people would debate and argue anything, from password sharing and "2 subs in one agency", right down to whether or not to consider one of Nephi's ideas. The spirit within the community was that of competition, and it spilled out into gameplay, with people constantly battling to become #1. Now though, it seems that everyone is content to just "get on with it."

I'm not going to go over everything that has been said here, as most of it has been summed up pretty well. I do agree with SS though, we really do need a set of rules in this game. It's more fun to compete and win when you are restricted than when it's an open field. A simple set of rules, to tell us our do's and do not's cant hurt. People can only really object to them if they would be stopped from doing something they already do.

I do believe though that the 2 subs thing has been blown out of all proportion with regards to THing. For me that isn't where the issue lies. You can do far more damage in an agency that compliantly password shares than an agency where the 12 subs are run by one person. An example to that point is my old agency, Hitchhikers: London. Nobody in that agency had more than 2 of their own detectives, yet we were able to sweep probably 1/3 of all the treasure hunts played during our active time. That was done because one person at a time had control over the whole agency. We all took turns in it, but essentially the principle was the same. Plus it was easier for us than it would be for one person alone, as it was harder for us to burn out. Though it did happen eventually.

Adam Carter
Adam Carter
Big Winner

Apr-20-2009 06:59

To that end, I would like to issue the members of Sleuthville a challenge: Let's play this game the way it was intended to. Ditch the helper tools, and pick up a pen and paper. You can use notepad if you disagree with tree wastage. Treat the case files as a "last ditch" solution, and really try to solve cases yourself before passing them on for PE checking. Then allow yourself one case a day to be checked, and let someone else check it themselves. If you have more than 1 sub, play all your cases on the character they originated from. It's more fun to play cases on different detectives with different skills. If you TH, then only play your own favours, not anyone elses. Pretend that we can't password share, and let other people do the work on their own detectives. Maybe even start a new detective (they can even be unsubbed) and try to get them as much experience as possible unaided. Try it for as long as you like, all I ask is that everyone tries it for a day. If you don't find it more fun, then go back to playing the way you do now. If you do, then stick at it. And like Sleuth Sindy said, once you complete that 3-note case alone without getting help from the Librarian, then you'll remember why you loved the game so much.

topkebab
topkebab
Lucky Stiff

Apr-20-2009 07:19

Apparently I missed Sleuth Sindy's "snake in the grass". Apologies to kenb.

And to Sleuth Sindy ;)

I've never heard the expression, I had to google it too.

Lolita Marinez
Lolita Marinez
Sleuth About Town

Apr-20-2009 08:43

Sindy. Kenb picked every negative word he could find out of every post. He used my "dishonourable" which I only used because I was discussing the honour system. It was a word that fit the context of what I was writing. It was certainly not "aimed" at anyone. Geez I have only been here a couple of months. I don't get the inner workings of the great Sleuth Machine and I am still finding out who is who is who is who. LOL. oh and also who is who and who and who. LOL.

Please don't take all the blame on yourself Sindy. He attacked a lot of us and used our words against us when some of us (namely ME) haven't even met him and wouldn't have the faintest idea that he had more than 1 sub!

Joey
Joey "Bulldog" Bane
Washed Up Punter

Apr-20-2009 14:45

Since this is my first post in this thread, I'll follow the example of some people above and approach each original point in order.

The helpers...

These helpers are basically nothing more than information trackers, tools that help a player move faster through a case. Once you've established the possible number of suspects per case difficulty, all helpers do the same thing: Dr. Watson is the 'pen and paper' on the screen, Pidgeot's is 'Dr. Watson for the lazy ones' (like me), Huglover's is an advanced Pidgeot's as it simply reduces the number of mouse clicks. None of them are 'case solvers' and thus none of them offer a real advantage. Oh, and about the VH helper, c'mon...it ain't brain surgery to print a map, draw some lines and check who's a man and who's a woman; it doesn't make one a better VH hunter, but just reduces the nailing time from 3 minutes down to 1.

So, basically, the helpers only offer the advantage of time. Now, in my point of view, we're all spending time of our lives playing here, so if we can spend less and do the same thing, why not? Helpers don't put one on top of the lists, but the number of cases done per day does.

Now for the second subject: password sharing and multiple subbes...

As Ddog and others have mentioned, there can be multiple and reasonable reasons for password sharing; the only 'advantage' this can create is during treasure hunts. (will get back to the advantage issue below)

As about the multiple subbes, again, there can be many reasons for this too, besides getting on top of the list. For instance, I was stupid enough to retire the detective I had about a year ago when I had to leave the game because of RL, so I boosted my new char by creating some more subbes and getting them contacts in NY, in order to reach faster a point where I can enjoy the game at its full capacity. So, what I'm saying is that I used this possibility simply for improving my gaming experience, without seeing it as an advantage.

Joey
Joey "Bulldog" Bane
Washed Up Punter

Apr-20-2009 15:15

Ok, now back to the advantage issue...

The question is: why are we playing this game? There has been a mention that this is an 'adult' community. So I'm asking: how many of us play the game to be on top of a list? I myself simply play it for pleasure and I'm sure that at least 90% of the players do it for the same reason. How many adults can find an accomplishment feeling in spending full days in front of the computer and paying cash from their pockets for getting on top of a game list? I mean...what would I say to my wife if I did that?...'Babe, we can't go to the theatre tonight because I have to solve 100 cases and be on top of Sleuh list...and you should love me for that because it's a proof I'm a real man!" A bit hilarious when you look at it this way, ain't it?

Now, of course, the '90% pleasure playing members' is a personal assumption, but I tend to think it's not far from the truth. And when you see things like that, you can't actually consider the idea of 'advantage', let alone whether it's fair or not.


Ok...subject no. 3 - the rules...

A couple of days ago I was watching an interview with a lady who travelled all around the globe. She said something that seemed to me to be a basic truth (the kind that you know, but can't pinpoint on request): "There are no civilised people (as in countries), but there are only sanctioned people."

This is a fact of life and of the human nature: as long as a rule is not enforced, it is not a law and thus can be broken and 'will be' broken. Values are nothing if they are not enforced by law.

Again, this is a personal opinion, but I can guarantee based on it that as long as the sistem (being the enforcement in this case) will allow braking of the 'moral rules', they will be broken.

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