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Jun-17-2012 17:57

Everything old is new again... or maybe not.

And let me start with a preemptive "Puh-lease, freedom of speech and all that aside, let's not turn this in to a debacle."

So, 'some' people have been getting up my a... err I mean politely pointing out to me, that the whole "some people have more than two subs in the same agency, and isn't that against the 'rules'" is banging away behind the scenes.

I've asked Ben to look at this with a view to scrapping the concept that more than two subs in the same agency is a 'bad' thing.

To be bluntly honest it's never been particularly well policed unless it was by self-policed by certain players who were trying to edge out the competition in Treasure Hunts.

My personal opinion is that the 'againsts' never really equalled the 'fors', and that we're at the point where as a community the TH scene just isn't that cutthroat any more.

So, I'm more than happy to go with the flow, as I suspect no-one really minds anymore.

But I'll leave the final word to Ben, of course.

Please feel free to discuss politely.

Please limit your lunatic ravings to a minimum nic :D

Jun-19-2012 04:56

Hell...I thought we were all here for some general relaxation and fun.

I'll spend my 2 cents on the subject by enforcing Night Queen's opinion. Couldn't have said it better myself...but I could've said it between two shots of scotch... Hey...I'm silver! Strange feeling... Got to fix this.

Jun-19-2012 09:11

Thank you for sharing your concern, VS. I would like to point that Ken is aware of the disscussion on this topic and, as I understand it, is awaiting the results of Ben's decision just like the rest of us. This isn't really about one person, though it has directly affected one of our dear friends greatly. (Which is a shame, I agree. However, Ken was considering a Sleuth hiatus for RL reasons before this issue arose. So please give him the credit for being able to make his own choices once this issue is resolved.)

I do not think that copying and pasting private messages into a public thread helps advance the resolution. Especially since there is an effort (this thread is part of it) to get this resolved. Please know that this is not the mods against the community. Sometimes things happen, are misunderstood, or mistakes are made. A public discussion is not always appropriate for every detail of problem solving.

In the end, Ben has always been fair and open about the decisions he makes. He has never acted as a dictator and has repeatedly shown his willingness to listen to, and highly encouraged feedback from, the community.

Since he has family and all, I don't think offering him a little more of our patience is an unreasonable request. We are all awaiting his input and the resolution of this concern. This thread is a place for everyone to voice their thoughts, not necessarily to make demands.

And for the record, my opinion as a player, is that our community would be better served to drop a rather old, unofficial rule and let us all get back to having fun. If that isn't the decision that is made, I do hope that there is a more formal documentation of this expectation of self policing so that we don't have Rule Lawyers digging into everyone's trash cans.

Jun-19-2012 09:45

Cfm has an excellent point, the last thing we need here (of all places) is a mod vs player discussion started, we're all here to have fun and get along. The mods here are NOT sleuth police, they keep the boards clean and try to keep the peace, lets not ask for more than that, shall we? We're all on the same side and love the game.

I'll happily and patiently await Ben's wisdom and ruling on all this and id advise everyone else to do the same.

Jun-19-2012 10:41

I fully agree with almost all points that cfm is mentioning, A valuable input indeed

-In no way this is a discussion of mods against community. I strongly believe that the behaviour of one mod is not to be applied to mods community in any direct or indirect way.
Mods have a valuable role and most of them are doing an excellent job. Just to name 2 as an example(are far more than two).a)nicnic did a great effort to resolve this issue and is still trying hard, b)SS has during the years shown a remarkable behaviour in resolving issues and offers fruitful input and good advices whenever he is asked for (I have personally attacked him many times during my V days but I admit I was wrong for doing so)

-I totally agree that we should trust the opinion of Ben and give him time to respond. In reality the later he responds... the better as more opinions will come in . I strongly believe in democracy and I want all voices to be heard. This is why I have openly invited the mod that has accused ken to share his/her opinion with us. As the majority of the speakers up till now are favoring the disapearence of the old rule ...I would like him/her to share with us his/hers opposite way of thinking and actually help Ben in his decision taking

My only minor disagrement is the fact that( as a stronlgy believe in democracy ) I think that ALL issues can be openly discussed if we simply respect each other. Ken's problem arised from a private msg not from an open discussion. The more open we are in public even in small details the less misunderstanding will occur.

Jun-19-2012 10:59

I think people's concern, Vampiric, is not that it's being discussed openly... it's pretty clear people are on board with expressing their opinions on this matter in a forum setting. I think the concern is that messages which were sent through private channels between 2 individuals are being shared in the open.

If, for instance, you had wanted to paraphrase the nature of the message Ken received, I think that wouldn't have ruffled any feathers. Posting it verbatim though, I think, gives people cause for concern that their private communications could be "compromised" down the road, if a similar situation comes up. It's a touch unsettling, that's all... :)

Jun-19-2012 11:01

Also, and this is purely a personal take on the matter...

I had the pleasure of meeting Ken in person back in 2006. He's a fantastic person, and if he's considering leaving SOLELY because someone somewhere leveled some sort of accusation against him, well that makes me sad.

If you're still in touch with him VS, please send my best wishes along if you would.

Jun-19-2012 11:57

What cfm said (very eloquently) :-)

VS, I can speak to the alternate view to this debate. Five/Six years ago I very much thought that having more than two subs in an agency was unfair/cheating/whatever you want to call it, as did several other people that have posted here that said that they now have changed their opinion.

If you are trying to stay competitive in Treasure Hunts, and you have 12 different real people playing detectives, it is MUCH harder to coordinate. You have to deal with time zone differences, availability of players, and just general communication issues. If you are one person playing lots of detectives you don't have this issue. Sorry to be so basic, but that's what it comes down to. If I'm sitting here waiting for my agency mate to log on to try to get a favor and it's 3:00 am their local time, and one person from the agency I'm competing against comes online and does 8 favors and wins the hunt in an hour because they are just rotating through the different detectives in the agency, I might get a little upset and feel it's unfair that I am following the "rules" (rules laid out six years ago and aren't referenced anywhere now) and keep getting beaten by an agency that I perceive is not following the "rules". That's basically what it boils down to.

This topic has been heatedly addressed time and time again in the past for these very reasons. Ben very clearly stated years ago that it was a rule that you could not have more than two subs in an agency. Some game features were also tweaked as a result of these discussions that we now live with (one being if you play cases from another detective, the detective owning the case gets half the XP). Ben has always frowned upon password sharing as well, and at one point threatened to put provisions in place to make it not possible (over which a lot of people in the community simultaneously soiled their pants).

cont'd

This reply has been deleted by a Moderator

Jun-19-2012 12:02

I don't want to jump into Ben's head, but I'm pretty sure the reason for this, is when the game was developed and the concept of agencies, treasure hunts, etc. was formulated, I think it was meant to be something that multiple people would try to accomplish working together as a team and they would be somewhat difficult, and therefore rewarding when you were able to win one. I don't believe the original intention was for one person to sit there with 8 detectives (or passwords to 8 detectives) and complete them on their own just by optimizing the use of favors. Because there is no real competition in that; it's who is on at the right time and has the time.

So as I said earlier, I can see both sides of this. Mostly because I was on the side of being vehemently against people controlling more than two detectives in an agency because that gave an unfair advantage to them.

I'm just posting this to give the alternative view you asked for and just why some of this stuff has come up time and time again.

cont'd

Jun-19-2012 12:02

But this is a different time now. There are only a handful of agencies participating actively in hunts. And while I'm still in the camp of "it's a little annoying", I think there are bigger things to worry about - one of which is having some fun here again with coming back and seeing old friends coming back. I know my new agency will never reach the top of the High Scores list (maybe if we keep at it non-stop for the next 10 years ;-) ). So it doesn't really matter to me anymore. And those high scores lists, just by nature, can't be as competitive anymore because the game has been around for so long. Some of us have missed years of sleuthing and it would take that long to catch up to the players that have stayed. To brand new players and agencies, it's almost a pipe dream. So those lists become less of a goal as they were when the game was newer and it was more of a level playing field.

And I think I said this earlier, but in my mind there is absolutely no difference between paying for and running 12 different detectives, and having the passwords to all 12 detectives in your agency, even if they are different people. And this is somewhat the norm in the Sleuth world.

And if someone has the time and money to pay for and play 12 detectives in the same agency, I'd almost congratulate them for being so dedicated to Sleuth