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Apr-16-2009 10:18

I wanted to start this thread to get some opinions from others in the community about the advantages that some players/agencies have over one another. I am not saying my thoughts on them are right or wrong nor am I saying that anybody else’s is. In fact, you may see me flip flop on the topics from time to time as I sometimes like to look at both sides.

What I do not want to see here is for this to turn into a flame war and/or any name calling. Remember, it doesn’t matter if you have been here for 10 days or 1000 days. Every opinion of someone that pays to play the game carries just as much weight as the next person.

A good debate can be healthy for the community and I ask you to all stay respectful here even if you disagree with something that is said here. I will start with some topics and would like to see them discussed and if anyone thinks I missed something or would like to add a topic, by all means go for it.

Apr-16-2009 19:10

I would like to applaud Lolita for her comments - I couldn't agree more.

I would also like to thank Ctown for bringing up the subject for discussion in a civilised and logical manner. Rarely does anyone raise the issue with me personally though it has come to my attention recently that this is an important topic for many people.

The first couple of years I played without any helper programmes, just with good old pen and paper, and yes Lolita, judging by the amount of cases I did I must be one of those sad Sleuth addicts. By the time I met Irene I was already high up in the ranks, largely due to 'free' cases left in case files by not so sad players who didn't always have time to complete theirs. For those I was very grateful and have never seen anything wrong with that principle and something I have continued in Hunters, especially for new and keen agents.

I agree with Ctown that part of the fun and challenge of the game is to figure things out for yourself and I agree that no newcomer should be given a helper programme too soon into the game. They also shouldn't have all the 'secrets' of the game pointed out to them but possibly nudged into the right direction from time to time with subtle hints.
But there are 2 reasons from personal experience why I don't think such a programme really detracts from the game: for one I'm still playing it! Secondly there is a period within the game (about 100,000 exp if I remember) where progress is extremely difficult. It takes so many cases for each skill point, it feels like one will never get there. This seems a good point for extra cases and something to speed up their solving. I remember faltering at that stage, though admittedly I persevered. I've noticed quite a few agents dropping out in this period.

Apr-16-2009 19:29

As Ctown rightly points out, an advantage is something that is not accessible to everyone. Now I have never heard of Irene turning down her programme to anyone who has asked for it. But Ctown rightly points out that it is not always easy to get the programme to run! In fact it took me ages, and trying all sorts of different things before it would work for me. It took Kas many goes as well. But with Irene's help we somehow managed it in the end. Perhaps this is something we can work on - to make it more user friendly.

I am very lucky right now to have a group of new and incredibly nice agents in Hunters. It is not a prerequisite for them to give me their password though some of them have (and some haven't). Password sharing is never abused in Hunters, but it enables me to put out peoples' cases (at their request) when they're away or use the favour they're holding if they're away. It's never done from a luck of trust... Hence I have no problems with password sharing as long as it's optional.

I also don't have a problem with anyone doing 150 cases in one week. Lolita would probably say get a life! But there are sometimes good reasons for this. For example we have only one agent with the Tailor contact in Shanghai. So one of the new agents decided he would be happy to target her for his contact. Now anyone who has ever set out to get a particular contact knows that this can be an arduous and long-winded task and primarily for the benefit of the agency. Hence many free cases have been given to him in order to accomplish this more quickly. It's been 2 weeks and still no luck...

Apr-16-2009 19:35

Finally multiple agents. I have only ever had two agents until Kas died and inadvertently inherited her 2 agents. Obviously this was not planned and it took me some time to decide what to do. In fact when their subs ran out I still hadn't really decided though I knew I needed them around me a little longer. These days I don't have as much time as I used to so I was delighted for Irene to help me. None of her agents are currently in Hunters so there didn't seem to be any conflict in interests.

Having an agency filled with one's own agents does of course give an advantage with THs - though it would be incredibly time consuming! But I can see that an honour code is required there. To be honest it's so much more fun to co-ordinate with new agents, get contacts covered before a TH and hope that it'll be one of the new agents who gets that last favour!
Other than THs I don't feel it to be a problem though. As Lolita said - if you have that much time to solve cases, why not!

Apr-16-2009 20:19

The Use of Automated Helpers
I think it depends on how much "help" the helper gives. I like Dr. Watson, which is more an automated way to keep track of your information, and less a way to have your case solved for you. I especially like it because my semi-arthritic fingers have less trouble using a mouse than using a pencil. The thing I didn't like about Dr. Watson was my own inability to remember (in the short time it takes to switch from one webpage to another) what I was marking off! What I would really like is a Dr. Watson that has Sleuth on the same page. I want to do the work myself and use my own logic.

Since Dr. Watson hasn't been ideal for me, I have been using Pidgeot's Helper. It requires less of my own brain work, which I don't like, but it's got everything on the same page, which I need. Also, at least I am required to use my logic to choose what questions to ask first or what suspects to ask about.

I've never used the Case Solver, but I have seen it in action and even just the name kind of puts me off. I want to solve my own cases. That's why I pay for twelve cases a day, so I can solve them - or choose not to play them if I'm not in a solving mood. My question to people is: "If you don't want to be bothered solving cases, then why do you play?"

I think that anyone who knows me knows that I care snap for high score lists. Seriously, I'm just not competitive enough. But I know people who are, and they work hard to get their cases done, and I don't think it's right that they should be passed up by people who are not even solving their own cases but letting the computer do it for them. I also think that the example Ctown posted would be discouraging to newbies who are competitive yet suddenly realising they couldn't possibly reach the top by doing their own cases.

Apr-16-2009 20:19

Password Sharing

I do understand where Ctown is coming from on this topic. Yes, if an agency shares passwords, then it's having access to several detectives at once to TH, and there really isn't a difference between that and having more than two of your own detectives in an agency. Honestly, I don't know what the solution is. I don't know if limiting IP address logins is the way to go.


Case Sharing

Yes, I'm putting this separate. You know, sometimes a person doesn't have time to finish their cases, so they want to share with agency-mates. But that's a far cry from feeding cases to agency-mates! In my agency, we often share cases and even though someone else may solve four of my cases, I may also have solved four of theirs. It all kinda evens out, eventually. But in that lies so much room for exploitation.

So this is my own personal feeling. I think there should be some kind of limit on how many cases each detective can solve per week. Slightly more than the 84 of their own cases, but certainly not as much as 150! Also, maybe to only be able to use your contacts to help a limited number of cases from the agency files per day - hey, we can only use the crime lab once a day, so why shouldn't there be a limit on contact assistence per day?

A couple of people have spoken up against what they consider the "dumbing down" of the game. I certainly don't disagree with them. Just because certain things about the game have been "compromised" doesn't mean they should remain compromised.

I'm certainly not for leaving things the way they are. I'm unable to flippantly say that no one's getting hurt. There are people struggling to achieve a goal they will never make because other people are exploiting the system. Of course, that's my own opinion, and I'm sure some players will share it, and some won't.

Apr-17-2009 00:37

It's too late and I am too tired to really comment on this. I may give my thoughts tomorrow on the greater scheme of things.

But one thing I do want to say is - having more than two subbed detectives in an agency controlled by one player is not an unspoken rule, it is a real rule. I will try to bump a thread where Ben clearly states this, but it has been well know for at least 3 years in the sleuth community. It's just a rule that Ben cannot enforce due to the technical constraints of the current game and the implications of trying to do something about it (i.e. a whole family that plays sleuth together). Therefore, the honor system must be in play. In addition, I believe this should apply to giving gift subs to other agents who have left the game and using their detectives. I don't see the difference. Let's not play naive and pretend there aren't agencies out there with 10-12 subbed detectives that only have 1-2 real players playing the whole agency. I don't think this is up for interpretation, it is against the rules.

Apr-17-2009 00:51

Not gonna bump the thread because it wouldn't add anything to the community right now and there were very different happenings back then and it is a different time.... but

From Sleuth Admin:
Nov-17-2006 00:24

I’ve always been hesitant to state rules that cannot be enforced by the game system. We tend to have a fairly civilized and community here, but that doesn’t change the fact that Sleuth is a competitive game and many of the players take that competition seriously. It is very difficult and time consuming to enforce such rules effectively.

There are four “honor system” rules that we do expect all players to follow. I’ve never listed them all together like this but they all have been publicly stated at various points in the past.

1) Abusive, obscene and uncivil posts are not acceptable on the public message boards, and repeated, unwanted private messages will get you banned.
2) Taking advantage of bugs or exploits to gain an advantage in the game is forbidden. This includes URL manipulation, cookie editing, server attacks, network sniffing, etc.
3) Repeated theft of items from agency lockers can get you blacklisted. When these situations are brought to our attention, we usually do what we can to inform agency directors and help them keep track of the perpetrator’s current detective name, but we do reserve the right to block the user from the system entirely.
4) A single player should not be the primary controller of any more than two detectives in a single agency. The only time when we can positively identify individual players is at the subscription purchase. So in practice, this is interpreted to mean that no more than two detectives in a single agency can be subscribed by the same person.

Those four rules are pretty much it. Up to this point, anything else that the system allows you to do has been considered legal.

Apr-17-2009 02:12

A rule that can't be enforced is not a rule. It's a wish.

I have only been here a couple of months and I'm still learning about the site and the community. I was shocked when it was stated that some full agencies are run by only 1 or 2 people. As Ddog said "Get a LIFE!" There I said it! And I don't think they have any reason to complain about not being able to make it to the top of the list. They chose to take on such a huge load for themselves and if it is not working out that they get the high scores then they learned a valuable lesson. They ought to share the fun and enjoy some communication and pleasant interaction with other people.

I personally love sharing the hunt with my agency buddies. We chat about it in the Bar and egg each other on wondering who will get the next clue and we get excited and cheer each other when we are successful. I had thought that was the point of the Hunt. Fun, sharing, laughter and camaraderie within an agency. If there are some agencies out there who don't do it for the fun and only for the numbers on the board then I can only say "You don't know what you are missing, mate!"

Apr-17-2009 02:29

And Anikka, password sharing is hugely different to controlling 2 or more of your own subs.

Your own subs means twice/thrice etc etc the work for you.

Password sharing only makes life easier for the agency enabling access to contacts and favours when the Real Person is away.

Hypothetically :- I live in Australia so my time frame is different to my American team-mates. Having access to my contacts might help them solve that extra case that means they can access their last favour for the day. They have had to do all the work while I was sleeping but it meant they didn't have to wait until I logged back in to get help. And the same for favours. It only minimizes time on a Hunt. And yes that is the big advantage but it is an advantage available to every agency so....no foul there.

Apr-17-2009 04:58

I thought I might as well post a short notice here too. Being one of the younger detectives I might give my thoughts on this debate, since it seems the main argument is that the new detectives will feel discouraged and quit the game because of these "advantages" other detectives/agencies have.

When I first discovered Sleuth I played around with Shades and Noir at the same time for a few days under a different profile, and discovered that even though Noir isn't all that flashy as Shades is I still liked Noir better. Since I didn't know what the game was about I made a few mistakes, and after 2-3 days I gave up that character and created Shadows. I still hadn't seen what a subscription would lead to, so I decided to try it. Even though I had no tools or free cases I still reached the top of the High Score list for the novices and were contacted by a few agencies about joining them. Some required me to give up my password, others said it was optional. I'm of the opinion that my profile is MY profile, and will not share my password, even though I can see the advantages and the security in doing so. I respect that some agencies has this as a requirement and that some detectives do this voluntarily. Ddog was so kind as to accept me into Hunters even though I didn't share my password, and for this I'm thankful.

Once I joined Hunters I got some travel money (4000$ was a LOT back then) and joined the agency in Delhi. In Delhi I got a lot of help solving cases, but I feel this just gave me more experience (not measured in exp, but real experience) and confidence. I went from solving perhaps hard cases to solving the toughest cases my exp let me (at least up to IH cases). During this time I had browsed around on the message board and found out that there were programs to be used to help you solve things faster. I asked around about these programs, and Ddog told me about Irene's program. I asked Irene about the program, and she willingly let me download it.