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Jan-25-2007 13:32

Wow, Ben! You don't waste any time! I logged off for a bit and when I came back on there was a new line with "transfer your retired subscription" (at least, I haven't seen it before now)

Jan-25-2007 23:10

I can already hear the objection to a person losing their Townie Contact: People will deliberately retire their agent to get a different Townie Contact. Well, that may be the case, but if they're willing to sacrifice hard earned XP and possibly skill points, money and equipment (although it has already been discussed how those items can be gotten around), then I say more power to them. I think it would actually be a plus as it would give that detective a new goal and keep their interest in the game that much longer. As to Ben's concern regarding taking away skill points, I think only young detectives make choices about skills that they might later regret, and at that stage skill points come fairly quickly, so I think that concern may not be that large of an issue.

Jan-25-2007 23:56

For me, a good deal of how I feel about all of this hinges on one thing, which I still am not clear on. When a retired det comes back, is the Shady cost of the 2 "legacy" FAs they inherit calculated on the basis of their pre-retirement experience or on the basis of their post-retirement experience? If it's the latter option, that still leaves the possibility for people to use false accusations as a an alternative to paying steep Shady fees. My concern about this stems from the fact that I think the change was intended to deal with the (unpolice-able) issue of what happens when retirement happen due to acts of (sorry) cat or mouse, if you will, rather than to introduce a new strategic element to the game.

I'm less concerned about the prospect of multiple resurrections (c'mon, how many zombie sequel movies have y'all paid good money to watch :P ) than I am about the severity of the penalty for exercising the option. For me, -because of how significant the shady threat has been in the game as we know it- I feel like the penalty for exercising this option should imply putting in a lot of work. I think that there are essentially two things that make people feel bad when their detective gets retired, both of which have been nicely articulated on this thread:

the loss of your character as a member of the community, and

the loss of the time and labour put into building that character, in terms of experience, skills and so forth.

I think that, irrespective of which of these is more important to an individual player, a retirement is really devastating. It sucks in both respects.

I also think that the cost of the resurrection should be less devastating, but that it should be more so than simply paying your shady fees. And as I say that, I'm really starting to appreciate Sindy's concern about why more people don't ask for help clearing their name.

I think that there have been a lot of interesting ideas put forth here that speak precisely to my concerns. (more, wait)

Jan-26-2007 00:07

It strikes me that Badass' idea about building skill points towards a resurrection skill could speak to both of the motivations I'm worried about, especially if the price of this skill was set high enough.

Newer players would have a hard choice to make between choosing this skill over ones that would make their day-to-day playing of the game much easier. Older players would accrue the points required to buy this skill at a really slow rate, which would mean a lot of work. And, it could be a skill which could be purchased more than once (in response to the fact that the reason we're having this conversation is that Ben and Sunny wanted to do something about the fact that people sometimes get retired for reasons that aren't their fault), but because of the increasing gap in the exp: skill points ratio, it would be harder to do the longer a player sticks around.

I also like the ideas about "sickness" and the loss of contacts, simply because either of these could imply lots and lots of work as a consequence for resurrecting yourself.

OK, I'm done. *Buys a wand and goes off to resurrect all 14 of his other dead detectives*

Jan-26-2007 00:24

I say "Amen" to everything Crunch just posted and also wanted to add:

If the skills are taken away randomly, a player would not know which skill he or she was going to lose, and may not lose the skill point he or she regretted purchasing to begin with, and could actually lose a more vital skill.

Having said all that, I want to say "thank you" to Ben for listening to what everyone has to say. I realize it's hard to come up with a compromise that will please everyone and be feasible to implement given the game's structure. I would not want to stand in your shoes. :)

Jan-26-2007 00:27

I just realized that in my post timed at 23:10 I used the phrase "skill points" when I actually meant "skills."

And that's all I have to say about that. :)

Jan-26-2007 02:42

Taking skills away randomly like Cindy suggested will solve the problem of ppl using this to get rid of a skill.

I agree that this option should have more penelty then it has now. The sad thing about loosing you character should be loosing the face/story/community you bulid with it. If you can save that but have to work hard on getting the rest back, then I see a point to it. Otherwise I prefer detectives to just get retired :P Or the game will loose it's edge.

Jan-26-2007 04:18

How about a newly resurrected detective starting over with a totally clean slate? ie 0 exp points, no contacts, no skills,no skill points, no apartment, no FA's.

If they are able to store equipment/money in their agency prior to resurrection, so be it.

This would keep things simple, yet maintain an edge.

Jan-26-2007 05:01

I had been thinking of this prior to Jas's unfortunate accident and had no idea about an of this until I got a MSN from Serges and Arabella P asking me if I'd heard and in the words of Serges, "Go get your old girl back."

I would like to say, I'm not a girl, not yet old.

I've always said I like Shady and how he works. And I still do. Like people have said, he gives the game an edge.

HOWEVER, as the game and gamePLAY changes so do other aspects of a game.
People now are playing more AI cases than ever, it's become more 'individual' than when I started and people were only doing agency hunts.

Someone doing an AI in Starsky and Hutch was incredibly rare as they got all their fame and money from hunts. And it's easy not to get a F.A when you are doing IH.

Also with the AV Hunts, people can longer do favours to gain money that they would have used to be rewarded. While, I realise you could sell AVH Gear to make up the money, it seems a colossal waste of time when you have to go to all that work and effort.

As a result, we have a lot of people with a lot MORE experience than usual and a LESS money.

Ben tried to address this with lowering Shady's pricer.

However, I don't think he or anyone quite envisioned how high Shady's prices would go when people were gaining such experience. And maybe he is too expensive.
Solve a Lot's idea of more FAs as your experience grows higher, (let's face it, the better you are at something the more they let you away with) is a damn good one. And I'd love to see that and slightly lower or capped Shady prices implemented which I think will take a lot of retirements in the first place.

Now, what I was thinking about prior to this:

What other game do you pay to play, that kills off your character?

Now I know a lot of you are like, .. "It didn't have to happen..." , "You knew the rules..." "You should have paid of Shady." And I still agree. However, I also said, "You have to be careful of 2 FAs." which I was

Jan-26-2007 05:03

I just made a very wrong, costly, arrogant and stupid assumption. So LED retired.

I should have paid off Shady at 2FAs, but I really didn't have the money. The prices, I think have become to high with the experience gained, I also feel (and have also felt) that $1000 is an unfair reward for AIs. Yes, I should of asked, but I was quitting unsolvable cases and things were going all right.

Since LED retired, Serges made the comment that I never looked back. Actually, since she retired, I've lost all interest in the game. LRC is only subbed because it was LED's sub and it would have been a waste not to use it.
And while I appreciate all the love and support and help that I got with LRC, it wasn't the same. I worked hard at all LED's contacts to help the agency and she really was my detective. For other people with doubles, I know you get pretty attached to one.

I also think that we've had people retire their detective because of what they've taken as sarcastic or mean-spirited or simply bullshit comments on the boards. (Including stuff I've said.)As we've all seen, Sleuth is a more emotive game than most because of the effort and work you put into a detective and people often make emotional and/or snap decisions or decisions they feel will make others feel better. (KellyKK, I hope to see you back :D)

There is also the issue of people getting retired "accidently". (My brother DID do it though ;), It WAS the cat!) Heheh. No seriously, people do get retired by accident and we've all had a slip up in Shanghai or Delhi.

Now, back to my original thought: What other game do you pay to play, that kills off you character? And is it fair to do after a certain amount of time and experience?

I can think of none. Sure, I like Shady but I think that his prices are/were way to high with the change in the game and game play. Yes, I think having Shady is a good idea.I do think that Shady is something that is good for newer players and can give them a fresh start and

Jan-26-2007 05:05

start and is a good teaching tool. However, we are seeing more and more experienced players who have been a big part in Sleuth and the community such as Aralives, Jas and Nacho Perez.Something, that never happened when I first joined for the reasons mentioned.
I also agree that the "penalties" might be too lenient but you are still losing a lot. And it gets to a point where it's not going to make any sense reactivating a retired detective if you make more penalties.

Anyway, these are my ramblings, once again I agree with what a lot of you say. I don't really know how I feel about everything. I am glad to have LED back and hope it re-sparks some of my interest in the game but I do like how Shady runs too. Like I said, there is a lot I agree about with all of you.

I also think this,like so many other things will blow over and everyone will move on. Ben can't please everyone all the time and there will always be stuff about a game not everyone likes so I really don't know why I bothered to put in my worthless two cents.

Thank you CrunchPatty for your above thoughts, well said as usual.