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ctown28
ctown28
Huntsman

Apr-16-2009 10:18

I wanted to start this thread to get some opinions from others in the community about the advantages that some players/agencies have over one another. I am not saying my thoughts on them are right or wrong nor am I saying that anybody else’s is. In fact, you may see me flip flop on the topics from time to time as I sometimes like to look at both sides.

What I do not want to see here is for this to turn into a flame war and/or any name calling. Remember, it doesn’t matter if you have been here for 10 days or 1000 days. Every opinion of someone that pays to play the game carries just as much weight as the next person.

A good debate can be healthy for the community and I ask you to all stay respectful here even if you disagree with something that is said here. I will start with some topics and would like to see them discussed and if anyone thinks I missed something or would like to add a topic, by all means go for it.



Replies

ctown28
ctown28
Huntsman

Apr-18-2009 15:15

This also relates to the password sharing discussion, I have been apart of many agencies in this game, some that share passwords and some that don’t. It is so much more fun to win a TH as a team then to bounce from detective to detective playing the favors out because you have access. Time zone constraints shouldn’t play a part in it. I like the idea I saw about how you should only be able to use your contact for so many peoples other cases a day. I think the way it was brought up to me was the contact would say something along the lines of “I said I would help with your cases, not your friends cases, now be gone with you”

This is not an attack on you VS but I would like to use you as an example since you brought it up. You mentioned that your daughter is playing two of the detectives in your agency. Great, always like to see new players come in. But is she really playing them? By you allowing her to use the VS character to process the case and then solve them as her is enabling a lot of what this discussion is about. Make her build up the detectives properly and don’t feed her the cases from yourself and Guiltfinder. Awhile back you created a thread that it is very easy to accomplish goals in this game and that it is boring. Yes it is easy when you enable a lot of the things that are being discussed in this thread. Most of the fun was going through the growing pains of building my character to what it is. Would I want to do it again? Probably not, at least not with ctown, I may however one day decide that I want to build a det from scratch again and retire Bonelady or Brady, if that is the case I will build them the same way I have in the past, by playing the cases the way the game is meant to be played.

I think I’ve gotten long winded enough and have no idea if I missed anything I wanted to address but if I have, I will try to touch on it later.

Happy Sleuthing!

nicnic
nicnic
Battered Shoe

Apr-18-2009 15:52

ctown I do have to disagree with you on one point, which I believe is supported by your later points:

"Some of you are under the feeling that if you are going to use such tools to do everything for you, then why play? I don’t think it any of our places to tell others how to play the game and what methods to use unless it affects the spirit of the game."

What I personally was trying to say, don't want to speak for others, it does affect the spirit of the game. If people are using this tool (which I have no idea if it is the case or not, but I suspect it is) to solve double or triple the amount of cases in a few hours than our normal 12 daily alotted, because they can solve an AI case in "under two minutes", then I do feel this affects the spirit of the game. And if used in this fashion seems very bot-like.

In addition, I would hate a newbie to get their hands on this, for all the reasons we have been talking about for a while. Again, very relevant to affecting the spirit of the game.

Secret_Squirrel
Secret_Squirrel
Safety Officer

Apr-18-2009 20:32

Ok... I'll probably just repeat what other players said. There was a lot to read I I did glaze over a few times. Teach me for going away for a few days :s

Ah my favourite topic 'Sleuth Helpers' (in general)...

I've tested what's about, and my impressions range from 'ergh' to 'argh'. I'm a purist, what can I say. I have books and books full of handwritten case tables. Time saver? I can do my case load in an hour and a bit anyway. If peole spend longer playing their cases, they might end up bumping into some fellow players, or taking a break to read the boards, or do the pub quiz. That's how I found all those things...

Brain saver? Sure. And that would be my sticking point... I really, [sorry Adam coz you are a great person and someone I really respect], object to the new AVH helper. It irks me beyond words. I spent AGES doing Villain hunts in the beginning (before Evelyn ruled the waves :D) battling Carrie for VH leader status. I LOVED every minute of that. And that's because I DID have an advantage; my hard work! AND I did know things other players didn't coz *I'd figured stuff out for myself*.

No, it doesn't 'irk' me, that's wrong, it SADDENS me, that other players miss all these great experiences of actually PLAYING the game the way it was INTENDED to be played, or having that light bulb go off over your head when you figure something out, or doing a little happy dance when you catch your first archvillain ALL BY YOURSELF.

In general, regardless of the 'helper' in question, we detract and diminish the game by making it easier.

I end this subject by saying 'but each to their own'.

(there is more)

Secret_Squirrel
Secret_Squirrel
Safety Officer

Apr-18-2009 20:50

Password Sharing
I don't want to pass comment on this as I dont have any strong feelings on the subject. I have done it rarely, but that's coz I'm a mod and am restricted (well in my own mind) by what kind of access I should give other players to the game.

Multi-Subs.
I have two subbed players. But really, even when I was playing both detectives regularly, I found it hard to be bothered doing all my cases. IF you have the $'s to support the game, go for it. If you have the dedication to play the game ad nauseum, go for it!

I wouldn't mind seeing some of the mechanical things mentioned above put in place though to level the playing field somewhat...

* Hehe as much as it would please me (as I've mentioned it passing once or thrice over the years) abolishing the High Scores Boards wouldn't really work. People need bench marks and goals and we are by our very nature competitive.

However, limiting the solving of a case to the case owner appeals to me. That seems to encompass 'helping your team mates' (after all that's why you altruistic lot share cases right) AND limits the tomfoolery on the high scores boards.

*Favours... VS said something about not being able to hold favours. That appeals to me. Or at least resetting favours at clockover. If you haven't done your favour by the end of the day then it gets wiped. The treasure hunters might faint, but I see real advantages in that. It gives agencies, players leveling, and players with multi-subs and access to multi-passwords something to think about.

I've kind of forgotten if there was anything else, but that'smy contribution to date.

Lolita Marinez
Lolita Marinez
Sleuth About Town

Apr-18-2009 21:23

A rule that can't be enforced is not a rule. It is a wish.

4) A single player should not be the primary controller of any more than two detectives in a single agency. The only time when we can positively identify individual players is at the subscription purchase. So in practice, this is interpreted to mean that no more than two detectives in a single agency can be subscribed by the same person.


nic nic said "The only way for Ben to enforce this would be to be to look
through all the players in agencies and where their subs come from regularly."

Does anyone want Ben wasting his time sifting through his payment records and double checking every one against agency members? And come on. Do we really think Ben is going to say no to someone who wants to give him money? That would be shooting himself in the foot.

Therefore it cannot be enforced in any real terms that mean anything. An honour system only works when all those involved are honourable. It only takes one dishonourable person to make it fail. In a perfect world everyone in the Sleuth community would have such values as to follow those rules without question but we all know that is not the case. This is not a perfect world. Even you, ctown said that your first instinct was to try to "circumvent" the rule.

Therefore it becomes a wish. Ben wishes that people wouldn't have more than 2 of their subs in the one agency but without enforcement it is still hope and hot air!

Adam Carter
Adam Carter
Big Winner

Apr-18-2009 23:30

Lolita, it is a lot easier than you think to track this sort of problem though. Every detective is linked to the PayPal account used to purchase it (if I remember correctly from when I was last told). From this it is the simple matter of ordering the list in such a way as to present all duplicated accounts next to each other, and then check to see if those detectives lie in the same agency. If so, then you have your rule breaker.

There are other ways that he can do it though. He could check the IP addresses where the characters are played from regularly. If there is an excessive amount (5-6+ subs with the same IP in an agency) then it is cause for concern. But you can't just say that because it's difficult to enforce then it's not a rule. It IS a rule. And that is the end of it. If people choose to break that rule, then they risk facing the consequences.

SS, I knew somebody would have a problem with my VH helper :)
I remember Serges wanted to do one a couple of years ago, to tie in with the AVL, but we decided that it was too soon then, and people were still learning how to play. The only reason why I went ahead and wrote it now is because it's been nearly 3 years since VHs began. Most people have a system now, whether it is lists like those found on agency websites, spreadsheets or others. This was my little project for something I could make that would be of use.

nicnic
nicnic
Battered Shoe

Apr-18-2009 23:40

To clarify one more time, when it is reported to Ben that this rule may be being broken, he has the ability to check, and from personal experience I know of at least one time he has enforced this rule. I'm sure there were others.

Let's use an analogy. Driving over the speed limit is illegal. 99% of the time you may not get caught when you are driving over the speed limit. If you do get caught, you will get fined for it. Because 99% of the time there is not a cop around to write you a ticket make it any less illegal?

Breitkat
Breitkat
Pinball Amateur

Apr-19-2009 00:08

The idea that a rule is "only a wish if it cannot be enforced" is rather troubling, and at the same time, maddening to me. This is the same kind of thinking that various people like Werber, Serena Barton, and Arakasi all used to perpetuate their illicit activities. And while these people were all before your time, Lolita, the results of their activity are with us today. Because of them, we have a community that (I believe, anyway) heartily believes in honor and ethical behaviour. We do not tolerate thieves, predators, or con artists, and do all we can to eliminate them from Sleuth.

Another result of that period in Sleuth history is the Code of Conduct. And while it may not cover all of the four rules Nicnic found that Ben stated, there are two statements in it which should cover your quandries:

1.You are expected to approach game play in an ethical and respectful manner and to adhere to any posted rules or rules posted in the future.

2. We reserve the right to remove, at any time, without notice, or refund any user for violations of this Code of Conduct.

So. It really doesn't matter what people think of the 2-Detective rule, or any other of the rules/guidelines/suggestions that have been posted by Admin. We are ALLLLLLL expected to behave in an ethical and respectful manner at all times. We're all adults here (even if you're under 18, by being here, you accept the responsibilities of being an adult, and behaving consequently). If you don't feel like playing nicely, you're free to go elsewhere.

Breitkat
Breitkat
Pinball Amateur

Apr-19-2009 00:52

Now. As for the other topics that have been discussed here, here's my take on things:

Automated Helpers
I spent the first three+ years of my time at Sleuth doing cases with pen and paper, simply because there WERE no helpers available. About 18 months ago, we started getting people who came up with helpers of various kinds, some with more 'automation' to them, some not. Of the 15+ that were available, I tried about 10. I wasn't impressed with any of them because they took too much work on my part to process, and some of them were difficult to load. I then reluctantly tried Pidgeot's helper, and instantly was impressed. It recorded the information accurately, it didn't clam people, it had a color system to help me figure out real stuff from potentially false to truly false, and I didn't have to endlessly switch from one page to another to another, etc. I've used it (double checking the results like Nicnic) ever since.

As for the completely automated helper, I've tried it briefly. I had extreme trouble loading it, and it took six times to get to the right webpage. Even with help, I couldn't get it to work easily. Personally, I'm not really enthused about it, but as for whether I think it's too much of an advantage, no, I don't think it's that much of a benefit over people who don't use it.

Which leads me to the discussion about detectives who solve large amounts of cases. The magic number that people seem to have agreed on is 150. I'm assuming this comes from the Weekly High Scores Board? People have been believing that this number only includes regular cases, and not favors. When I've been on that particular Board (and admittedly, it's been a while), my numbers changed based on BOTH cases and favors that I solved.

Having said all that, my basic belief about helpers is that people should not use ANY helper until they understand the basics of Sleuth, the logistics and reasonings behind how a case is solved.

Breitkat
Breitkat
Pinball Amateur

Apr-19-2009 01:19

They should work cases by hand until they understand how the process works (for most people, this shouldn't take more than a couple days, tops). Once that happens, the sky's the limit for helpers as far as I'm concerned.

Which brings me to the topic of detectives solving 150+ cases. The magic number that people seem to have settled on is 150. I'm assuming that this is coming from the Weekly High Scores Board? Someone mentioned that this number only includes regular cases, not favors. Unfortunately, when I've been on the Weekly Board (admittedly, it's been a while), my numbers were affected by BOTH cases and favors. So, how does 150 cases and favors break down? If you divide 150 by 7 (days a week), you get 21.45 (for arguments' sake, let's bump it up to 22). So how does a detective come up with 22 cases in a day? 12 of those are his/her own regular cases. Let's be generous, and give him/her 4 favors because of those cases. That's 16. Now, to get 6 additional, I need 3-4 cases from someone else, and 1-2 favors. Voila, there's 21-22 cases a day.

Now, looking at that math, I'm not seeing it as being terribly unfair. Using 3-4 cases a day from another detective doesn't seem like highway robbery to me. If the magic number were above 300 or so, I could see the reasoning for objections. But as it stands now, 150 per week isn't that much to me, especially if a person is doing a special task, such as contact hunting.

Password Sharing
I can see why this is a touchy subject for so many. I've been a Director for going on three years now. At this Agency, we do Password Sharing at the Director level. We do this for several reasons.

One, we have had a problem at the Agency with having only one P/E contact for a time. When one of our agents needs something processed, and this detective is not around, a Director can go and process the evidence and not have to wait for the person to get back.

Two, several of our detectives are here only on a part-time basis.

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